Installing a spare distributor in an emergency

[bigjones]

In the trunk is a spare distributor, in case the Pertronix breaks down (perish the thought!)
It's fitted with points.

Trying to think this through. So I unbolt the "faulty" distributor, noting where the rotor is pointing. Then I fit in the spare dizzie, pointing the rotor to the same place. Then I turn the dizzie so the points just open. This (I'm thinking) will get me in the ball park so the engine will actually fire up. Then I can use a timing light, which I also have handy***, to get a better adjustment of the dizzie. Have I got that right?

PS. Just so you know, I tried it and the car wouldn't start.

(***Reminds of the joke by W. C. Fields "I like to keep a bottle of whiskey handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy.")

Cheers!

 

[nomad]

I think I would get the engine to about 10 degrees advance by the flywheel marks then have the rotor pointing to the same cylinder as the one you pulled and then turn the distributor so that the points are just opening. Should run.

Kurt.

 

[dklawson]

I would use a slightly modified method of what Kurt is suggesting.

Turn the engine until you are somewhere between 5 and 8 BTDC for #1 on its firing stroke.
Fit the new dizzy and connect its low- and high-tension wires.
Turn the dizzy body so the rotor is pointing roughly at the cap terminal for plug wire #1.
Turn the ignition key to the run position.
Rotate the dizzy body slowly counterclockwise until you are sure the points are closed.
Now VERY SLOWLY rotate the distributor body clockwise until you see the points open as indicated by a tiny spark.
Lock the distributor down a bit, refit the cap and rotor, and start the engine. Now do your dynamic timing.

In the boot I carry a length of wire soldered to a turn signal bulb. I use that setup as a test lamp when/if needed and can cut the wire off the lamp to make repairs on the road. You can also use it as a static timing light so you don't have to watch for the spark across the points. To do that, modify the procedure above. Stuff the stripped wire on the test lamp into a connector on coil (-)... the distributor side terminal of the coil. With the ignition in the run position hold the test lamp against ground. As above, turn the dizzy counterclockwise until the lamp is OUT/OFF and then a few more degrees counterclockwise. Then SLOWLY turn it back clockwise until the test lamp just turns on. Finish as above by fitting the cap and rotor and carrying out the dynamic timing.

 

[bigjones]

Kurt and Doug,

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.

Good idea setting up by looking at the timing marks (at least on the 1500 you can see the marks, ha!)

Now, why do you need it to be #1 ?
I mean if it is pointing at #3, why not just set the spare dizzie so that the rotor is pointing at #3.
Remember the car is by the side of the road, with truck whizzing by, so the least messing about the better.

Cheers!

(Doug I like you test wire method with the bulb. I'll have to try it out)

 

[Billm]

I think that you mean #4, not #3
When I do what you are saying I will put the vac can in the same location as before, turn it about 1/4" retarded, start up the car and turn the dissy a bit until it runs well.
I don't keep a timing light in the trunk so can't see the timing mark
Make SURE that the points in your spare dissy DO open and close before you put it in the trunk!!!
BillM

 

[nomad]

As Bill and Doug mentioned I believe the rotor has to be on 1 or 4 to be able to use the timing marks on the crank pulley. Forgot about that and also looking for the little spark when the points open. I usually static time with an ice pick continunity check light. 1 and 4 are at top center on a A series engine at the same time as, of course, are 2 and 3 but 180 degrees out.

Kurt.

 

[dklawson]

As Kurt said, 1 or 4 near TDC to use the timing marks.

Remember the test lamp I mentioned? You can cut a length of wire off of it and make a little jumper to connect to the starter solenoid. Place the stripped end in/on the solenoid terminal with the white/red wire, then TAP (not hold) the other end of the wire to the solenoid terminal with all the brown wires. There will be some small sparks and the solenoid will close so you can spin the engine over. Make sure the car is in neutral first. That will really simplify getting the engine to #1 near TDC when you are working on the side of the road, in the dark, in the rain.

 

[bigjones]

Ah, yes. I had forgotten that the timing marks only relate to # 1 and 4.

All good stuff - thanks one and all in me straight.

 

[bigjones]

...in case the Pertronix breaks down (perish the thought!)

Cheers!

Yeah, the dang thing broke down this morning. Tried roadside fixes *** but had to call a tow-truck in the end.

Maybe tomorrow I'll take a look but right now I just want to take a hammer to it.

PS. ***Swapped out the distributor cap and plug leads. Verified it was getting fuel - sort of. I had the fuel line over the fender onto the road and turned on the (electric) pump. It made a puddle. Tomorrow I'll check the actual gal/min.
Could be anything - fuel, electrics, mechanical. Where does a guy start?

To add to the misery, when I pulled off the plug leads, the stinking cable pulled out of the crimped plug connector. Where do you guys get decent plug wires from?

Update:
Compression readings are as follows: 115, 115, 115, 118 psi. So I think I don't have a hole in a piston. Though I did notice, for example, that reading for #1 went down quite quickly compared to, say, #4. Don't know if that means anything. All plugs were taken out before I started the compression readings.

 

[dklawson]

In your other thread you mentioned doing a leak-down test. That will be good at identifying possible problems. Don't forget to remove the radiator cap, oil filler cap, and air filter(s) when you do the leak down test so you can watch for bubbles in the coolant and listen for leaks into the intake, exhaust, and block. Save any major surgery until you have the results of the leak-down test.

So was this the distributor with the Pertonix? if so, refit the points distributor and see if it fires up. Does your car have a ballast ignition system and if so did you draw power for the Pertronix red wire from the coil or from the fuse box?

 

[bigjones]

Doug,
Thanks for the reply.

I plan on doing a leak-down test tomorrow (when the weather is a bit cooler and I've got more energy!)

This was the dizzie with the Pertronix - I've never ran the spare dizzie with the points yet.

No ballast.

The coil has 2 red wires coming from it and two black. A red and a black go to the Pertronix. Another lead goes to the rev counter (I think) and the other comes from the fuse box. Let me double check that. though.

Update:

The electric fuel pump is delivering a pint in 31 sec.
Taking out all the plugs and hooking them up to their leads, I have a spark on all of them.

PS. What did the old fella's used to say? " If ya got fuel, spark and compression, well, dang, the thing should run" Well, the dang thing doesn't!! :excitement:

 

[dklawson]

You had recently worked with the distributor though hadn't you? Any chance the distributor slipped and the engine went out of time?

Didn't you fit a Facet pump? According to the Purolator web site the smallest brick pump can deliver 6 GPH. that would be .1 gallons/minute and at 128 ounces/gallon, that's just under 13 ounces/minute.
1 pint = 16 ounces so it sounds like your pump is delivering more than the smallest pump rating.

Remember it is supposed to rain tomorrow. I hope the car is under cover where you can work on it.

 

[bigjones]

Doug,

Thanks for helping out.

It's an Airtex E8016S electric - 30 gal/hr. I'm getting approx 15 gal/hr. That's strange. I didn't put on any kind of throttling device.

Yeah, rain tomorrow - but it is in the afternoon so I have in the am to fix the dang thing.

Just went outside - the dizzie is bolted down tight - good thinking on your part though.

Cheers!

 

[dklawson]

15 GPH is low for 30 GPH pump but still enough to feed a 1500. Think what that really means in terms of miles driven even if you are getting terrible gas mileage. Have you put a pressure gauge on the fuel line to confirm the pump is developing pressure to go along with that flow (3 PSI max for SUs)? Do you have any inline filters between the pump and carb? Any chance of fuel blockage in the tank around the pickup tube (and could you even see that with a flashlight through the filler neck)?

I was grabbing at straws regarding the dizzy.

As a screening test, squirt a thimble of fuel down the carb throat and see if the engine fires. If it runs briefly and dies you have a fuel delivery problem. I believe you said this was an SU conversion. Did you go with an HIF or HS carb? If the thimble of gas test suggests fuel issues and if this is an HS series carb, at least take the lid off the float bowl and make sure fuel inside is at the right level. It should be somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 full. Too much or too little is an indication that there is a problem with the float or needle valve since you know the pump is working. If the thimble of gas test suggests fuel and this is an HIF carb it still will be worth looking at the float valve but it is a lot more work to check.

I hope the weather holds for you.

 

[nomad]

Was the spark strong and hot? Sometimes a weak spark won't fire under compression. Other than that I would say a fuel issue. Did it just die or sputter to a stop?

Kurt.

 

[Morris]

it is possible to fit the dizzy on the 1500 backwards. What will happen is the car will run fine than suddenly the dizzy pops out of the drive dog. In some cases it may pop back in place once the dog comes around again. The end result is that your spark is 180° out.

Here's how to check: remove number 1 plug and confirm that the dizzy rotor is in or near the number 1 position as you feel the air coming out the plug hole.

 

[tomshobby]

Why not just carry the dizzy plate with the points and cond mounted on it? Then all you need is a screw driver to replace it.

 

[bigjones]

Thanks for the responses.

I didn't get much chance to work on it but I've noted your comments - today I should be able to take another look.

What I did manage to do was make a start on the leak-down test. The numbers so far are meaningless because a) I had a leak in one of the compressor connections and b) the engine was stone cold (and I've just read it should be warm, doh!)

However, I did discover a couple of things of interest:

1. I had #4 cylinder holding compressed air - but leaking out of all the push rod channels (for want of a better word).
(BTW, the timing marks on the crankcase show about 3 deg after TDC. I'm assuming this means the timing pointer is off 3 degrees?)

2. I removed the coolant refill plug to listen to any escaping air and noticed that the coolant level was very low (almost a quart!)


Tom: The idea was to have a complete distributor (including plug leads) ready to drop in. My reasoning is that a couple of years ago my TR3 broke down - the innards of the distributor (springs and weights) had exploded.

Cheers

 

[dklawson]

For the GT6 I carry a built-up breaker plate with points to replace the Pertronix as Tom suggested. Thankfully I've never had to use it.

Adrian, 3 degrees ATDC? Are you saying that is where the static timing is set or where the engine was during the leak down test?

If you are not going to run the vacuum advance/retard, the static timing needs to be the other direction. A general starting point would be 5 to 8 BTDC. With the engine warm, bring the engine speed up to about 4k RPM using the idle screw, then set the max advance at 32 degrees. Lower the idle speed back to normal and load test the car by accelerating uphill in too high a gear. If you hear pinging or knocking, look at the idle advance and retard 2 degrees and repeat the load test. You will have the max advance when you no longer hear pinging. That timing figure will work for you until your engine has a major change or until you change the grade of fuel you are using. Anyway, 5 to 8 BTDC is usually good for starting any engine.

Air coming out of the pushrod tubes is consistent with worn rings and blow-by. Your compression numbers were fairly uniform and perhaps a bit low... but not worn out. If you had a blown head gasket you are likely to have heard air coming out of adjacent cylinders, the water jacket, and perhaps more air out of the block. The actual leak down numbers are kind of arbitrary. I know the literature talks about for 100 PSI in you should see no more than an X PSI drop for a healthy engine. I would not focus too much on the numbers but focus on looking for uniformity and finding leaks.

 

[bigjones]

Doug, sorry for the confusion. During the leak-down test (ie at presumably TDC) the pointer was indicating 3 ATDC. No big deal but why is the pointer so far off.

Thanks for the analysis so far on the leak-down test - would worn rings cause "missing", by the way. The engine has a definite, unpredictable "miss". Not at a particular rpm or road speed.
More leak-down numbers after I get the dang thing running. Also need to re-arrange the garage so I can work in comfort the garage.

Cheers