blown head gasket?

[newmexTR3]

Hey guys,

Beautiful day here in NYC, perfect for a drive until... I started up the car this morning and it backfired a few times as it does after a cold night. After warming it up I started driving and noticed a real loss of power, almost like I felt when I blew my pushrod a few weeks ago. So I pull over, pull the valve cover, and see no broken pushrods, but something worse- some coolant in the oil....

Pulled spark plugs- #2 was a bit wet...


I went to my garage and installed all my new pushrods, checked compression on the pistons (all good, around 160- this is what they are supposed to be, correct?). There I did not see anymore coolant in the oil.

On the way back home the car is noticeably underpowered and sounds like the head gasket has gone.

my question- is there anything else besides a blown head gasket that could cause coolant to show up in the oil?

Looks like I'll pull the head next weekend- what other parts & gaskets do I need to get besides the head gasket? Also, do I need to use that copper head gasket paint?

thanks in advance!

 

[judow]

I am far from mechanical but when my Healey did this, it turned out to be the distributor which because it was not working correctly in turn fouled the plugs. Simplisticly, did you check the plugs? if they are fouled, might be the distributor.

Whee, first time I could offer an intelligent query.

Shucks, coolant in the oil. Now I see it...

Sorry, not so intelligent a response.

 

[TR6BILL]

If you are going to pull the head, bring it to a good machine shop and have them Magnaflux the whole thing. Of course you will have to take all the valves and springs out but I just had this done and it only cost me $120.00. Cheap insurance. Good time to lap the valves and check all your spring pressures. My TR3 of years past ended up with a cracked head. (I am not wishing this on you.) But, they are known to do this. I was fortunate and was able to get the head welded. Again, not wishing this on you but it is cheaper to find out now.

 

[sp53]

Water in the oil always a problem. But I was wondering about the backfiring. Does your choke work alright? Is your timing and dwell close? What about fuel mixture. The car should not backfire when you try and start it. Something is not right. Can you look into some of these things before you tear it down? I would not like to see problems transfer over to a new head job. In addition, what you might consider is putting some rings on. A tr3 pan unbolts nice and clear and you can pull the pistons up through the top and ball hone the cylinders put the old rod bearings back in and have a kinda nice hillbilly rebuild. Doing it that way is often all these old tractors need. They just look as cool as a Ferrari. Just a thought.

 

[TR3driver]

If you're sure the #2 plug was wet with coolant, then it about has to be the head gasket, or head, next to #2. But a leak there would also allow air/combustion gases to be blown into the water jacket, so you might want to investigate a bit more before pulling the head. And of course, you can try retorquing the head studs and/or running some stop leak to see if that fixes the problem. Stop leak is a temporary solution, of course, but it should get you by until the snow piles up.

Get the "valve grind" gasket set (aka "head set"), it should have mostly everything you need if you don't disturb the liners or pan. I would add new lockwashers for the manifold nuts; and possibly new (special) flat washers for the head nuts if your old ones are in bad shape. Wouldn't hurt to have new nuts and studs on hand for the exhaust manifold/head pipe joint either. And of course you'll want some anti-seize (I like the copper-colored kind) to use on the manifold studs.

My experience has been that, if everything is right (be sure to check liner protrusion on both sides for every cylinder), the head gasket will seal just fine without any dressing. When things are not right, no kind of goop will help. But I doubt it does any harm either, and the factory recommended Wellseal (available from TRF), so suit yourself.

Be sure to check that the threads on the head studs are in good shape, by spinning a new hardware store nut down them. It should spin easily all the way to the bottom; if it binds roughly 2/3 of the way down, the threads are distorted and the stud should be replaced.

Note that the most common place for TRactor motor heads to crack is between the two water holes in the center of the head. A crack here actually does no harm, since it's water jacket on both sides of that surface. If that is the only place it is cracked, I would reused the head (but of course that would not explain coolant in #2).

 

[Don Elliott]

If the compression measures 160 on all four cylinders, I doubt that a blown head gasket would still give these readings. Also I think that if the head gasket were blown, with about 3000 psi pressure in the cylinder (or more ?) from the explosion of the air/fuel mixture would cause the water to be blown out the spring loaded cap on the radiator top. The water system is only pressurized to 4 psi.

Is the rad level dropping seriously ?

To get water in the sump, I propose that it may be condensation of the humidity from the cool weather we are having now or it may be that the "figure-of-eight" gaskets are leaking.

Do you have a whitish emulsion all over the inside of the valve cover when you remove it and turn it over ?

 

[newmexTR3]

Do you have a whitish emulsion all over the inside of the valve cover when you remove it and turn it over ?

What would that be a sign of? Coolant being burned off in the engine?

 

[newmexTR3]

Hey Guys,

Looks like tomorrow I'll probably pull the head unless I'm able to verify that the head gasket isn't blown.

What are the proper steps / tricks for taking the head off and then putting it back on?

 

[TR3driver]

If you don't have the bolts between the intake and exhaust manifolds, then I suggest lifting the intake manifold and carbs away as a unit (after disconnecting lines and linkages of course); and leaving the exhaust manifold hanging on the exhaust pipe. But if the intake and exhaust are attached to each other (as original), you'll probably have to undo the exhaust flange and remove both manifolds.

Don't forget to drain the coolant first.

If you need to clamp the liners (because you are going to turn the engine with the head off), I found that a stack of 1/2" drive sockets works well as a clamp.

Unless you're sure it will come out easily, it's probably best to leave the temperature sender in the thermostat housing. Undo the clips on the capillary tube and carefully lay the housing aside. Don't let it hang on the tube. But if you are going to remove the sender, do it before you unbolt the housing from the head.

All I can think of offhand. I used to have the process down really pat, but it's been a few years now since I finally solved my head gasket problem for good and the details slip away.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I have always been able to leave both the intake and exhaust manifold in place and just pull it all back out of the way. I have to undo that bellcrank(?) that operates the front choke/jet as it would foul on the inner wing. Also have to invert (or remove) the metal fuel between the carbs.

I then jam a 2x4 or such between the manifold/exhaust pipe and the block to hold things back out of the way.

As Randall notes long sockets (+ I use big washers) keep the liners from popping up as you crank the engine for piston cleaning, etc.

I also put cardboard blanks over the wells for the pushrods to keep junk (or parts!) from falling in there.

I think you'll find that the heater valve has to be removed to get at the right-rear head nut. You may also need to remove the one of the studs for valve cover or rocker pedestal to get at something -- I'm a little vague on that. Possibly obvious once you're into it that far.

I find I have to remove the coil but perhaps this is because of a slight inward bend in the heater tube on mine that means it has to be loose to clear the head.

I always make a little numbered slotted cardboard holder to keep the pushrods in order so they go back in the exact place they came out. Read somewhere this was the thing to do.

 

[sp53]

Sometime/ most times those heads are stuck on there pretty good so be careful and do not pry it off in the wrong spot because you can easily chip the block. Sometimes people use the rope trick, but on a tractor motor you do run the risk of breaking the sleeves lose. I would try and wrestle the head back and forth and every which way. If it does not come off that way, I would repost and ask for help. The problem could be a crack in the head also. How much water are you losing? It is the loss of power that has me concerned. When that happens, the problems usually become self evident quickly

 

[triumphant2]

I too am removing (or at least trying to)my head to replace the freeze out plug. I have removeed the manifolds and all the head bolt nuts etc. The head is stuck fast and does not move at all, solid as a rock. What's the trick to get it broken loose?

 

[sp53]

I would start by spraying your favorite penetrating oil down inside all the studs and around the perimeter. If you do not have much experience, research the engine design and you will see better what you have. As you will/can see the head studs are beefy and some are long and some short. Often a long one is bent and that can be holding the head down, but also just years of placement and rust. If you are doing a total rebuild you could pack some rope in the cylinders. Most people pack the robe in say 2&4 or 1&3 and then rock the car in gear, but you run the risk of breaking the seal on the sleeves because some time everything comes up together, but again, if you are replacing the sleeves, no biggie. Some people try and remove the studs, but a tractor motor has a couple that go deep into the block and if they break, well another problem. Some people do pry them up from the front; however, they go slow and gentle and pry in the right spot with a softer metal. I would oil it up good and perhaps slap it a couple of time with a block of oak and a hammer to try and get it lose and then just keep working it. The block has those 10 head studs and they pretty much key the head in place also, so the first movement you get is going to be very minimal.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I too am removing (or at least trying to)my head to replace the freeze out plug...

If you are referring to the plug on the back of the head -- I have replaced that one without pulling the head.

The old one was loose so I was able to pry it out. The replacement I used was a rubber plug available at your local auto parts place -- a sort of rubber plug with a big washer on each side and a bolt thru the middle. Plug goes in then as you tighten the bolt the washers squeeze the plug causing it to expand and seal the hole.

Drove with it like that for 15 years or so until I had to have the head off for other work.

If you must pull the head -- I have used the 'rope trick' successfully w/o dislodging the liners. No guarantee what your results will be but it can work well. Once it moves even a little then you're on your way. I have also used some plastic wedges sold at Home Depot (used for shimming door and window frames) to harmlessly apply some prying force to the head.

 

[newmexTR3]

update- The TR gods must have been helping me out this weekend, because I ended up not having to pull the head. Me and a friend went through and double checked everything possible before pulling it just to make sure that was what needed to be done.

I had not (and still haven't) seen anymore coolant or evidence of it in the oil since that one time last week.

What I did discover was this- the rocker pedestal studs were all loose, one so much that I needed to replace the stud because it was bent. I think that these may have been somewhat loose before all of the recent pushrod trouble I had, but I'm sure that a very stupid mistake on my part contributed to the one bent one. I hate to admit it here, but I can sort of laugh it off at this point. I was using my friend's garage & tools last weekend and used a torque wrench which turns out measures inch/lbs instead of foot/lbs. Wow. That was quite idiotic, and luckily not very damaging. I only used it on the 4 nuts securing the rocker assembly so that limited the damage.

The more likely culprit I discovered was that the #1 and #9 head stud nuts were significantly loose- probably around 60 foot/lb instead of the recommended 100-105. #1 is right in the center where the coolant channels are very close to the cylinder sleeves, so I'm theorizing that because of the cold start some coolant worked it's way into the oil.

All I know is that after we tightened up everything, double checked the compression, checked for oil in coolant and vice versa, the car started right up and is running like a champ.

It has taught me a valuable lesson besides using the correct torque wrench. I've been taking a lot of things for granted on the car, as in "the engine was completely rebuilt only 30k miles (and 15 years) ago, so everything should be pretty tight on it." Clearly, this isn't the case, and I now need to go through and start checking all fasteners to make sure they haven't vibrated themselves loose over the years.

I gave her a nice wash and polish afterward and drove for a bit through Brooklyn as the weather was perfect for LBC's yesterday. If the weather continues like this I'm gonna have a hard time putting her up for the winter anytime soon!

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Don Elliott]

Good news is always agreeable to hear. Good for you.